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Thursday, July 28, 2011

Conversation with a contemporary Christain concerning morality.

This back and forth originated in the comment section of a blog about the tyranny of the FDA over our food production. Here are the posts. I will let you draw your own conclusions.

Nullify! nullify! nullify! and then make it a CAPITAL offense for federal agents to interfere with the right to grow and buy food in the State of Missouri!!
Let’s quite playing games with peoples livelihoods and health.

Paula Hall
There is also another TEN. The TEN COMMANDMENTS. And anyone who violates them will not be free from punishment. All the Dixons need to do is to be patient and these types of enemies ALWAYS succumb just as long as the Dixons don’t give up. When dealing with the travesties of justice you describe it is always like you say, deceive, push and impress. These are all designed to make people like the Dixons discouraged so they give up on their own. That is all the power these god-pretenders have. I pray the Dixons and everyone else to hang in there for the long run & then we will see who is victorious.


Unfortunately Christians are usually the biggest supporters of breaking the ten commandments, here in the “bible belt.” I meet few if any “Christians” that see a thing wrong with stealing off of their neighbors in order to send their kids to school.
Or using the threat of death by government to regulate what his neighbor puts into his body. (They call it government protecting us.)
“The government is of God” and can do no wrong the story often goes…. Despite how many people the government kills in the process.
“If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.” — Thomas Jefferson

Our government is not of God anymore, has not been for a long time. Not all Christians steal from others, that’s like saying all farmers own a John Deere. I think Christians as well as the rest of America needs to be more vocal about the crimes being waged by our government on small farms. We also need to capture the news media somehow, it fails to be news anymore it is censured watered down liberal crap that has too much political bias. We need to do all we can, call the new stations, call radio stations, make sure that everyone starts talking about this. We need to email our friends and neighbors, post on Facebook and tweet every chance we get. If we can somehow shine the light on the evil, it will slink back under the rock from whence it came.

I wish you luck Susan. I am frustrated to say the least.
Most people both Christians and non-Christians are so brain dead that they think the purpose of government is to be our mommy and protect us. They are thus stuck in the trap of arguing for instance that Raw milk is safe and should be legal, Yadda yadda yadda….
We need to make the argument that USDA is unconstitutional and that any mandatory organization like it has to violate our inalienable rights by definition. I can decide what I put in my body thank you. Proper legitimate government should be protecting my inalienable right to make that choice, not criminally violating it.

I wish this forum were threaded as I would like to expound about Christians stealing as it is a pet peeve of mine and most Christians are so dumbed down they do not even know when they are stealing. Ponder what you are doing to your neighbor when you borrow money for a house and it is created out of thin air. Think hard and long.
In hindsight perhaps this does relate to the food/milk issue as the same thing is happening when Christians again do not see the shocking immorality of deciding what their neighbor can or can not put into their body.
Thank God for Amish neighbors and raw milk. :-)

I think it would be hard not to know when you are stealing, and I don’t know about Christians in your neck of the woods but speaking for myself, being a Christian does not mean we are perfect. In fact the very nature of being a Christian acknowledges the fact that we are not perfect and we do sin. I believe when you become a Christian you try to be a better person because Jesus died for us and did so because of the sin we commit. It is not a faith based on believing our good works get us to heaven but that God’s grace given through Jesus, saves us in spite of ourselves. Christians make mistakes, just like other people because we are just people, not smarter, not better, just people. Where is your condemnation for the people that have stolen that are not Christians? Stealing is wrong no matter if you are a Christian, a Buddhist, an atheist or just a plain ole John Smith that doesn’t know what he believes.
I’m not really sure what being a Christian has to do with the topic of Government control over our food sources, but you are right, Joe, the issue is stopping the FDA and the USDA from the control they shouldn’t have. Big government is never the answer.
P.S. The Amish are Christians too :-)

Hi again Susan!
My point has absolutely nothing to do with man’s imperfect sinful nature. It has to do with the fact that they don’t even recognize their actions as sinful in the first place. That is a HUGE point and difference IMHO.
Most Christians do evil and do not have the analytical ability to recognize the fact, and that is what is happening with many peoples support of the FDA. i.e. If you can not figure out that stealing from your neighbor to send your kids to school is stealing. Or that delegating the job of stealing to a politician is still stealing. If they can’t recognize these “obvious” immoralities then how can they recognize some of the more subtle ones such as telling your neighbor that he can’t put certain things in his body or that borrowing money from fractional reserve bankers are both immoral acts also?
For those of you that are wondering why borrowing money from a fractional reserve banker is unambiguously immoral, consider that the act of creating money out of nothing is the very definition of inflation. So if your borrowing causes your retired neighbors savings to go from being worth $200,000 to $100,000 over a ten year period, you have taken part in stealing his wealth just as surely as if you robbed him at gun point.
This is undeniable truth yet I have never ever heard a another Christian bring up this point. They do not even realize what they are doing. Thank government schools I guess.
Take care.

Susan said: “Where is your condemnation for the people that have stolen that are not Christians?”
Susan, I condemn stealing or other immoralities no matter who the perpetrator may be. I just hold fellow Christians to a much higher standard. Especially when they willfully and forcefully demand the right to steal and threaten to kill their neighbors with the force of government if they are not allowed to continue stealing.
When you get down to the final analysis that is what Christians in contemporary Ameika do for a living. They go to church on Sunday and then every day of the week they use every tool available to them including governmental threat of death to make sure they can violate every God given right they can of their fellow Christians.
In my opinion they substantiate their evil by their misinterpretation of Romans 13 as meaning that no matter what kind of evil government that THEY create (there is no longer a Caesar) that it is of God and therefore it’s OK.
Be blessed

Wow it sounds like you have a whole lot going on where you are, I can’t answer for anyone else, but what I can answer for are my own actions. When it comes to other people’s sins and mistakes I think it is best to leave it up to God to convict people of what they are doing wrong. I can say that I believe something is wrong but there are many admonitions in the bible about looking at our own sins before pointing out the sins of others. In my own walk I have noticed that God works with each of us as individuals. He may be correcting me on a sin of my own, while working on my husband on a sin of his that is entirely different than mine. Thank God that he loves us enough to do this, but we can get so wrapped up in what He is now showing us that we decide everyone else needs to be straightened out as well. That is not our job. Our job is to be the best Christian we can be, try to lead by example, and when we stumble, ask for forgiveness, get up and try not to trip over the same sin again. How can we show God’s love when we are so angry over the injustices done to us by others real or imaginary? The greatest injustice was done to Christ, yet his words were “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” How can we not forgive our neighbor after so much forgiveness has been shown to us?
I talk about the health benefits of raw milk and organics, I talk about the problems with the FDA and USDA, and most people look at me like I’m a little screwy. I just keep talking, I figure if I talk enough maybe someone will hear a blurb on the TV about Monsanto or run across something online and it will spark their interest enough to learn more about what that goofy girl was talking about. Ask someone if they know what a GMO is, most people will look at you with the deer in the headlight look, they have no clue. We can’t fault them if they don’t know……..we have to just keep talking.

Susan I can not address the whole thing but I will address a few points:
You said: “When it comes to other people’s sins and mistakes I think it is best to leave it up to God to convict people of what they are doing wrong.”
So Susan if I heard you right, and correct me if I am wrong, you think that courts should be abolished and all laws for crimes ranging from burglary to rape should be taken off the books because this is Gods job not mans “to convict people of what they are doing wrong.” And if this is not what you meant I fail to see how I am supposed to differentiate between an individual stealing from me at gun point and someone using the violence of government to steal from me? Is every evil done by government immune from being judged as wrong in your world view?
What about Stalin starving 30 million Christians in the Ukraine? Was that OK because a government did it? I suppose we should not have had the Holocaust war trials because a government gassed the Jews so it was OK and we should have left the judgement up to God.
I am not being flippant I really do not follow or understand your logic at all.

You also said:
“How can we show God’s love when we are so angry over the injustices done to us by others real or imaginary? The greatest injustice was done to Christ, yet his words were “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” How can we not forgive our neighbor after so much forgiveness has been shown to us?”

Susan forgiveness does not absolve the perpetrator of evil from justice. Again in addition to forgiveness do you want to get rid of all criminal laws? Even with God’s forgiveness for us he still holds us accountable for what we do. Civilized man has done this through out history.
My point is that just because you call yourself government should not absolve you from justice. Nor should something being “legal” absolve an individual or government from justice, it that act is wrong. Did you know that every act that Hitler committed in Germany, including gassing the Jews, was legal?
In the same way my neighbors stealing from me to educate their children is wrong regardless of it’s being legal.   It most certainly is not lawful. Do you understand the difference between legal and lawful?
The FDA arresting people for dealing in milk is wrong regardless of the law says. It may be legal but it is not lawful.

I hope this makes some sense to you. I am not the most articulate person all the time but I am much clearer in writing than verbally.

This may be redundant but I see the act of Christians turning a blind eye to the evil of stealing of their neighbors assets to educate their children as no different than if they turned a blind eye to a child molester loose in the neighborhood. As I have asserted before most people these days can not even reason logically.
Be blessed Susan

I do believe people should be held accountable for their actions, I believe in capitol punishment (now to open a huge can of worms,lol)
Let me give you a for instance so you can understand what I am trying to say. If someone broke into my house and killed my husband. I would want to see them brought to justice. I would go to the trial and hope that he were found guilty. I would however try my best to someday forgive the person that did that. Not for him, for me, for my own peace. The government has passed a law making abortion legal right? I don’t believe in it. I think it is morally wrong and will do what I have within my power to do (vote, pray, speak out etc…) to try to get that law repealed. If my neighbor is an abortion doctor I would probably have many discussions trying to dissuade him. He would know my opinion, but I will not condemn him for it is God’s place to judge him, not mine. If he needs a loaf of bread I will give it to him.

The command God gave us to forgive others benefits us more than the ones we are to forgive.
May I ask, because I don’t understand what you are talking about when you keep saying that your neighbors are stealing from you to educate their children.

Hi again Susan we have to quite meeting like this, :-)

Let me regress a bit. When this country was founded we had something like a 95% literacy rate (the highest the world has ever known) and it cost money to educate your children if you sent them to a real school.  The literacy rate has never again reached this high level.

Around 1850 the industrial revolution was getting started and factories needed workers who would sit in one place all day long and do as they were told. (Exactly the opposite of your average rural person at the time.) So to solve this problem, powerful people such as the Rockefeller family copied the Prussian educational model and brought it to America.  The entire purpose of the Prussian educational model was to get people to do as they were told  and not to ask questions -  it did that very well and it has worked very well to that end in  America also.  So  the powers that be, got mandatory educational laws passed. The main reasoning for them was so that they would have an army of robotic people to staff their factories.

How to pay for these mandatory schools?  Well the way it has worked out in America is that they instituted the property tax.

One thing this did was bring about the first plank of the communist manifesto - the abolition of private property.  If you have to pay rent on your property and can loose it if you don't pay the rent then there is really no such thing as owning property. Right?

This is where Christians get lost. They attend churches where the pastor tells them that anything government does is OK. Well since when is stealing off if your neighbor to educate your kids OK with God? It sure was not when this country was founded.  If this is OK then having  the property tax pay for $50,000 college educations of everyone's children would also be OK. Right? What's the difference?

How about taxing everyone's property so that every child also gets a first car and a first home?  Are you getting the idea?  The end does NOT and never will justify the means.  It is not my legal duty to educate your child or buy him food or clothes, or cars or homes.  It may be my moral duty to help the less fortunate but that is not what we are talking about here.

Here are some resources for you.
It was serendipity that  Reverend Chuck Baldwin wrote a column about Christians following the evils of the State this week:

It is also possible today to get a much much better education than offered in any government school and even on most colleges for under $500 a year. Yes per year. And you can educate a dozen of your kids for this same low price.

Take a look  at "Healing our world" by Doctor Mary Ruwart. She discuses liberty from a Christian perspective and it's free.

Good talking with you. I hope this has helped.


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